00:00:10 Still the same one. 00:00:58 Can You see, or should we move by a couple of spots? Yeah, so far it's okay. Maybe later we'll go to this. 00:01:05 This is unbelievable. Yeah, as I am saying, we can move like three spots. What a wonderful sight this is! Welcome to the INSEAD Alumni Forum in Oslo. My name is Narayan Punth. I am a professor of strategy and leadership at INSEAD and delighted, To be your co host for today. 00:01:24 And I am Maria Brigandriassen, MBA ten D, partner and the strategy leader in PwC in Norway. Now Ryan and I are truly excited to be here together with all of you. And, we wanted to start to share some few facts that will show you just how spectacular this gathering is. 00:01:46 And you already saw some of these facts seven hundred, Participants. Sixty four countries. 00:01:54 And the top three nationalities, 00:01:56 Ladies and gentlemen? Twelve percent. 00:02:02 Give it up for France, Germany, and Norway! Name is four, yeah! We have alumni from twenty different executive programs, degree programs, executive programs. 00:02:18 And From those, 00:02:19 Two hundred and fourteen promotions, including, Some Letters recognizing ladies and gentlemen from the MBA class of nineteen seventy. And we also have current EMBA and MEM students joining us. What a community! 00:02:48 Thank you so much before we dive in. 00:02:50 Before we dive in, we need to have some housekeeping notes. Please keep your phones on silent. We want you to use the Vova app throughout the forum. It is your program guide, it is your networking tool, your Q and A channel, and your photo sharing hub. If you haven't downloaded it yet, 00:03:11 Please do so now. And it works great. 00:03:14 It is now my great pleasure to welcome to the stage, The woman who has been the driving force behind this incredible forum, and when I say'driving force', I mean she does drive. President of the NCIAD Alumni Association Norway, Susanna Hattestad. 00:03:43 Thank you. So Great. 00:03:48 To be here. Let's have my notes perfect. Good afternoon, alumni, friends, and a very warm welcome to Oslo. The stats is there that I am so proud that we have seven hundred people coming from sixty four countries to Oslo. That was not given when we started planning for this year, so thank you thank you for coming. It's a real pleasure, To bring this community together, Especially at a time when the world can feel increasingly fragmented, and when connection matters more than ever. Forums like this create space not just for to meet, but to listen, exchange and learn from one another. We at NCL, an organization in Norway, see our role as conveners. 00:04:46 Connecting alumni across industries, generation, and geography, and at this forum. It reminds us that the learning doesn't stop after the graduation. It continues through experiences, dialogue and shared reflection. Over the next two days you'll hear diverse perspectives, challenges, adjunctions and reconnect with friends and you might have some new ones. 00:05:16 My hope is that you use the space with openness, curiosity, because real insight often begins with listening. Thank you for making this journey, For showing up with intention and for being an active part of this remarkable global community. Welcome to the forum and enjoy it. Thank you. 00:05:46 Please welcome to the stage the president of the NCI Alumni Association, Franz Blohm. This. 00:05:59 Is Paula's dad. Also for my side friends, well, It is, if you're here and you look around the room and you have a closer look at it, 00:06:08 It's unbelievable. The energy and the place. I think we can all be very, very happy to be here in Oslo and in Norway. 00:06:15 And I'd like to indeed stress one point. It's with foresight and determination that Suzanne actually was walking around with her pitchbook to do the forum in Norway since twenty twenty So. She finally got her way, and with an enormous success. I think it's brilliant. Listen, this forum indeed embodies, I think, exactly that spirit: determination, foresight trying to Find a compass in this fragmenting world and do that together through exchange, through open learning, and through open discussions. So when we gather, we don't just reconnect; we speak ideas, we form relationships. And I think that is indeed what our community is about and that we can live to the fullest for the next one and a half days. So that's brilliant. So I hope we can use it well the time together. Ask the question you. 00:07:15 Hesitate to ask, please do. Make new connections, reach out to the people you don't know yet. There must be many. I know that we all know many, many people in the room, but there must be many we don't know. Use it to the fullest and I hope we have a wonderful one and a half days ahead of us. So setting the bar again higher and higher here in Oslo, thanks to the community in Oslo and fantastic for all here. Thank you. 00:07:47 And now someone who needs little introduction, the chair of the NCI board of directors, Kristen Skoldlund. Oh, I guess I'll like push it. 00:08:00 She was here last year. She's Norwegian. Warm welcome and so happy and also so proud to have you all here in my hometown of Oslo. I have to say I do feel personally responsible for the weather but then, And I am very sorry about it, But then I met someone from India, who said the air was so delightfully, refreshing. So maybe I shouldn't feel so bad. Anyway, I have to say that I have yet never come across someone who has had an INSEAD experience who is not raving about it and talking about how that has impacted their lives. And i. 00:08:45 I think the secret sauce of that is, of course, the quality, the progress, the faculty all of that. But a very very key ingredient is the people and the community. It is being able to share that experience with brilliant people learn from them, develop together with them and forge those relations. So I would tend to claim that INSEAD is not just about the degree. It's very much about being part of that community. And that is a lifelong experience. And I would really like to thank you all for helping strengthen that community by making the effort of coming here, coming together, participating and create that fantastic vibe that I am already feeling. And I would also quickly like to thank everyone who's made this possible : the Norwegian team, they've done a tremendous job and also the team at INSEAD, all the supporters and all the volunteers. 00:09:42 Thank you ever so much. It's a huge amount of work behind this. And with that, I just wish us all a fantastic couple of days together. I'm so excited and really looking forward to it. So have a great time. Thank. 00:10:06 You all. What a wonderful opening. Now, let's take a moment to acknowledge our amazing sponsors and supporters: BCG, Waterdrop, PwC, Loyale VC, Ivans the NCR Alumni Association and R Energy. We are deeply deeply grateful. We. 00:10:32 Have a fantastic program for these two days. And the theme of the conference. Is leadership, balance and disruption. Today we will speaking about disruption and how it impact the energy transition. Tomorrow, We will focus more on the disruption from AI and how to lead with it. 00:10:54 And our first session today sets the tone perfectly. We are living through an energy transition of historic proportions, I think you will all agree, And no one has navigated it from closer to the top than our next guest. He, Led Statoil and BG Group, and later served as chairman of BP through some of its most turbulent years. Today, he is the chair of the board Yara International, operating advisor Clayton Dubilier and Rice, chair and founder Incommen IS. And to facilitate a conversation with him, Please welcome to the stage the Dean of IESE Francisco Veloso in conversation with Helge Lund. 00:11:37 Let's count, how many times he starts talking about uh, raising money for the new campus. The new campus? Yeah, I mean in Fondi they're rebuilding the campus, right? I have no idea. And he's he's raising like two hundred mil for it. 00:11:53 Well, good afternoon everyone and delighted to be here. I mean, I'll, be, i'll be back tomorrow to talk a little bit aboutum about the school. But today, I have the distinct pleasure to be here with. Kari Luns to talk about leading in this new era, strategy, pressure and tough choices. And indeed, as Narayan started by putting it, I could not think of somebody that could talk about these topics in a more adept way than you given your amazing professional trajectory. Actually let's take it back to not the start. Let's take it back to. 00:12:36 Yeah, I really wanted him in Amsterdam. 00:12:40 You look like each other, right? You graduated at that time. 00:12:43 Yeah, exactly. I think everybody was telling us that. So then everybody was so happy when we finally met. We were instant friends. And he's a sex back into that time. 00:12:54 What really excited you as a young leader as you graduated from INSEAD and kind of entered your professional life? 00:13:03 Thank you, Francisco. Thank you for having me. I mean, Jane Burrow not Jane, you know, Jane Burrow. So I came to New Zealand in nineteen ninety nine, and actually, before my job before that was to be political adviser in the parliament in Norway, actually working on foreign policy and defense. Issues, and in that capacity, I was actually in Berlin the days when the wall came down. And I think we all agree, in hindsight, that that was a really important moment for for the world. And it set the tone of growth, International collaboration sort of trade belief in international institutions and so on and so forth. And that was really also therefore a perfect. 00:13:58 Time to come to INSEAD, that spirit was so strong. And meeting people from all over the world with ambition and energy, and really wanted to work in an international setting. And I am one hundred percent convinced that the students today they feel the same sort of enthusiasm by coming to INSEAD, but the world looks a little bit different than it did at that time. So. 00:14:27 You were saying, you know, Kind of like that tone that everything is possible and everything is possible around the world. And that actually took you on a series of next steps in your career until you actually got to the top CEO role. New set of challenges, new set of opportunities. In fact in two thousand four you became the CEO of Statoil, which is now Equinor. You did that at a very particular moment of the company because there was a series of reputational and governance crises that had affected the company, and you had to turn it around. You know, Rethink, you know what is the path forward given all the things that were affecting the company in a way that could set a positive trajectory. So how do we go about driving this change? 00:15:22 I think this is important for today because we're looking at this turmoil, and we'll get back to that in one of my subsequent questions. But when you have all of these things kind of not working, strategy is not in place, reputation, governance crisis where do you start? Is it the controls, the culture, the strategy? Is there a precedence? How, do you approach that and what were your own learnings as you went through that important transition? 00:15:50 So, Francisco, it feels a long time back indeed, but it was a tough situation. The chair had left, The CEO had left and the head of international operation due to actually a corruption issue in Iraq at that time. So the organization was disappointed. They had lost a little bit of self-confidence and leadership was drifted a bit. And they also had a very significant growth Challenge and felt the pressure from from the financial market. So, so I really was driven by two sort of demands or beliefs. One was the importance of speed, And the other was to seek to find a narrative and a strategy focusing on the future to help people forget about the misery in in the past. 00:16:45 So, I decided to focus on three elements. One was values, corporate values, And really about what and how and winning the right way to have absolute ethical boundaries around what we wanted to do. And, the second was really about setting expectations for the leaders of the company, not being caretakers, administrators, victims. But actually being role models for our values and the way we thought about the business, and about setting or moving the company to a new level. And based on that, we launched a quite aggressive, I would say, growth strategy investing significantly increasing investment both here in Norway and also internationally. 00:17:42 And I am not sure that it's easy to rank these leadership values, controls, and so on and so forth. But the way I thought about it, at least that time :, if you have strong values, clear ethical boundaries around what you are doing, and you have a strong leadership, You could actually be more offensive in what you were doing on the attack side. It's a little bit like in. In football, I am not a Manchester City supporter, but I think they're brilliant in defense. And since they're good at defense, they can also attack harder on the offensive. And I think that's an analogy that works for business as well. 00:18:22 So that's it. So, you are saying that you know, there was, you know, of course, getting the values right, You know, adjusting, you know the value set because of what had jolted the company in important ways, you know get the strategy in place but, I picked up also an important element what you said, Which is once you put those things in place and you kind of organize that, having that notion of speed, then it's possible, right? Because, what I am seeing is that you want to convince people that you can move into a different state. And if you don't get that possibility set, that trajectory set, then it may be harder to make some of that adjustments come to fruition. And and that actually then. 00:19:07 Leads me to my subsequent question, which is okay. This is important. It gives that kind of like opportunity to look into the future and to get the company going. And in fact, going you did with the company, You know, then you know, you led Statoil through a merger with Hydro's oil and gas business and then into a major international expansion where there were a variety of successes. And indeed, it was quite quick. On on a succession of elements, But there were also some some challenging periods and some things that didn't quite go perhaps as as planned. So, okay, speed is important. But then when you're doing this important transformation and going forward, how how do you think as a leader on the balance between bold transformation? But also is it too much? Is it too much because the company can't absorb it because we're taking too much risk? 00:20:06 Or whatever that is. So, how did you reflect, given kind of your experience on that speed? But what is the right speed? 00:20:17 I didn't spend enough time at INSEAD to really have a formula on this. And, it's probably easy in hindsight to find that balance between transformation and excessive or irresponsible risk taking. If I bring you back to, Those moments, you know, China had just joined the World Trade Organization. The industry had been really unsuccessful in exploration for a long, long time. So, there was a lot of growth opportunities and a lot of demand for the products that we were producing. And I felt that we had a choice between staying in Norway and sort of decline with the resource base in Norway or we built on the capabilities and the skills. 00:21:05 And technology that we had built as the biggest offshore operator in the world for decades, and to create value of that outside Norway as well. So we embarked on a quite aggressive strategy. First, we merged with our biggest competitor in Norway. The reason for that, we wanted to build risk capacity capability and scale to actually play in, Internationally, I think that worked really well and brought the company up in the i would say, premier league. We also launched a massive exploration program, drilling for more oil and gas at that time. It was very successful. We launched into Russia, not so so successful, And I understood that they were not so successful when taxi drivers started to talk. 00:22:00 About the project we were trying to do in the Bering Sea called the Stockman Field, a huge gas field. But actually we pulled out in time. And, then we had another big venture into Brazil that has become a bedrock of the company's activities internationally today. And finally, we did a venture into to the shale resources in the US, highly controversial in Norway, I think directionally it was right, but it was the wrong moment. And I, think also, we underestimated the pushback from stakeholders in Norway in going into into that sort of segment of the industry. In many ways, I think about big energy companies as risk management institutions because you have exploration risks, you have technology risks, you have safety risks, you have security risks, you have market risks. 00:22:58 So, this is the core of your business. So, I am not sure that the magnitudes of the bets that you are taking are the key question. It's much more about what we discussed already as a board and as a leadership of the company, :, do you trust the values, the leadership, the quality of your risk management processes? And also to understand what kind, Kind of risk you are taking, and that you can't pair back if your venture does not work. 00:23:33 And so, you're saying that the issue is more about that flexibility. So, in sense, That if you're pushing, of course, some assertive strategies, as you were saying, then you push push, push. And then you say that what what you need is to create the capabilities to pair back when you think it's going too much. And and that becomes the defining element. Or are there. As pects in terms of of the leader and the leadership team to say, actually, there are things here that, that are going to create an undue risk. So is there a moment where you start to think about perhaps this was not the right level of risk? Or or it's really through through the control systems that you that you that you look at that at that measurement? 00:24:22 I think if you think about into dimensions, one is the. Formal risk management processes, And the other one is what kind of culture do you shape in the in the company. And I think both are important, but if I want to you know weigh one against the other, I think actually, to shape an open culture where people really challenge you on the decisions that you're making or the state of a project or a certain business, I think that's the most important. And often the organization understand. 00:24:55 You know that we have issues before you understand it as a top leader. So, therefore, the importance of can you give an example of how that played out? I don't have a specific example.;. It's more generally that I think that brutal openness— that people are willing to come forward and challenge you— I think it's incredibly important. Very good. 00:25:19 So, I have a couple more questions, but I want to invite you all because we are bringing you in. Through the Hoover app, in terms of your questions, And so you can both ask questions and vote on questions that are over there. I'll go back to those questions in a little bit, But I want you just to give you an opportunity to go and follow on some of that ahead of time, so that you have time to look at it. So fast forwards into, And you started already to feed in some of that in terms of your leadership, career. 00:25:52 Let's talk about stakeholders. I mean, you already mentioned some of it on some of the comments, but you know, as you moved on, you know talked about oil but then BP and Novo Nordisk. You know, as you move to the board and particularly, if had to operate in set of circumstances where stakeholders wanted very different things, and you had to navigate through that environment. So it's not just what of course. 00:26:22 Some of the internal stakeholders, but then external stakeholders that connect to the company in different ways. How do you make decisions in these environments? Like, how do you shepherd the company forward when you're dealing with stakeholders that do give you different signals, tell you sometimes very explicitly that they want different things? What is the role of the leader? And how did you navigate some of these situations as as as you experienced these different brush fires? 00:26:48 So I spent most of my, Career into industries, pharmaceutical and the energy industries, and both quite deeply integrated into societies. And is therefore dependent on trust not from one stakeholder but from many stakeholders. It's part of the core business. And I think, Francisco, The starting point in trying to respond to your question, is that I think you do a mistake if you think about stakeholder management as a set of communication activities. That is not. 00:27:21 The key issue, the issue is that there are real differences what various stakeholders want, and you need to recognize that. Of course, A stakeholder in your own company. If you have an engineer that has spent decades of building her career as an offshore engineer, she has a pretty different perspective on an NGO operating outside the company and so on. And so forth. I think that's the important starting point. And secondly. 00:27:51 It's about not all pressures or all stakeholders are equally important at all times. So you need to have a conscious view. All that there are some pressures that you need to deliver on, like regulations, laws, you need access to capital and so on and so forth. Do, you have more long term strategic sort of forces that is working in certain ways? So, it's more a decision. Do you position ahead of the curve? Or do you follow? I think you have more sort of noise that happens every quarter that you sort of need to manage in a way, but it's not strategic, it's not critically important. And same thing with specific shareholder groups. And the way I think about it in a long-term industry, in a publicly listed company, there are many important stakeholders. If I got to pick two, I think it's your own people and your shareholders or your owners. 00:28:49 Because unless you bring them along, you will not succeed with your strategy. Because if your organization doesn't understand what you want to do, there will be no execution. And if shareholders are not supportive, you will not access capital at the right cost. And if I talk about the BP example, we had a divided. Shareholder base: some wanted us to go faster on the energy transition, Others wanted us to go much slower and even stop the activities in the low carbon businesses. And we weren't able to align the shareholders on strategy. And ultimately, of course, that's a leadership and a board responsibility. 00:29:35 Very good. So, my kind of final question before bringing it to the Q and A is thirty years? Leading complex organizations, you know, You already talked about some of these learnings in terms of how you look at these worlds changed over these thirty years as you started. I mean, what are your key learnings? You know, of your long leadership journey. What are the things that perhaps you feel have been a lesson that kind of stays with your different experiences? But also things that change that perhaps had to unlearn or to adjust. 00:30:10 As you look back at your career, a. 00:30:15 Couple of thoughts. The first one is: the more I think about leadership, it's about trust. And you can be right on strategy, you can be right on technology, you can be right on pace, you can be right in so many aspects. If people do not trust you, it's really hard. And if you accept the idea that leadership is not about caretaking. Managing the organization here and now, but actually take the organization to a new level. There will be, per definition, a lot of uncertainty. And in order to take the organization with you, they have to trust you. So I think that's one of the key learnings that I have. The second, that I think is more and more applicable, is that the importance for leaders to both. 00:31:09 Spend time in the engine room and at the balcony, and by that I mean, in this world where it is so hard to predict, You need to work on in the engine room to impact those issues that you can impact like efficiency, portfolio choices, cost and so on and so forth. But, at the same time, you need to have a place where you can watch the bigger game and try to identify those two. Three to four factors that are really strategic that the company need to attend to, and distinguish that from all the noise that you are seeing around you. So, I think those are two lessons. I wanted to bring maybe one more learning, and if I think about my own sort of leadership journey, I think I focused on too many activities and chased too many. 00:32:07 Opportunities. If I had done it again, I would concentrate it on on fewer issues and fewer topics. And I think there is a leadership lesson there more generally. I think we many of us. We think about the successful leader is she or he is the first one in the office in the morning, the calendar is packed every day from seven to ten in the, Evening, and you are the last one leaving. That's sort of in some way the picture of a successful leader. I think it's wrong. I think we need to build and develop leaders that are more able to reflect and to pick what are the two to three to four areas that I really can impact. And that is important for the company for the long run. 00:32:58 Very good. So, I have here, A question that got a lot of visibility, which is, you know, what are your biggest regrets? 00:33:10 Well, I think there are many things that I would have done differently. But if I bring it into where we are today, I think we should have spent a little bit more time on the balcony in BP when we did the transition. Because we moved from a place where the world in twenty, twenty one, were driven by science. We wanted to do the transitions transition as soon as possible. And, then the Ukraine war happened and I think society shifted very quickly from emissions reduction as the number one priority to security of supply and cost. And Israel has seen that earlier and maybe going with a slower slower. 00:33:58 Pace, And it's a little bit as we discussed earlier this morning that maybe we took too much first mover risk in in that area. Very good. I have another. 00:34:10 One which is you know looking at your answers, rational leader looking at the world making decisions. You know can one be a rational leader in anideological battleground? You know is that even feasible in your perspective? This current environment. 00:34:30 One of the concerns I have is that to me, it seems that CEOs and chairs were more visible in the public debate on important issues historically compared to what we see now. And I think it's almost like shocking to see that with all the turmoil that we're seeing today, that we do not see more leaders, Talking about values and what kind of society that we want to build. Part of that, I think, Has to do with the fact that the debate in the society now has been so tough and so rough, particularly driven by social media, That I think most of us, we have concluded that the risks are too high, both for your institution that you're coming out in the wrong way. 00:35:23 But also for you personally. But I think, actually, the voice of business has to be more visible in some of the biggest topics of society, including on the energy transition and the climate change issue. The nature crisis will not go away, even if we have stopped talking about it. Very good. 00:35:44 So we're getting to the end, a couple of questions more. One is about more specific about kind of nuclear fusion. Of course, had a long past on energy, a lot of knowledge. Is this a source of energy that we're going to see in the next decades? What's your view on that? 00:36:03 I'm not an expert on nuclear. You're a keen observer of what's going on. So, the way I think about this is that longer term, we have to look at all options that can give us less damaging energy into the market because they are. There is one constant, at least in my career as in the energy industry, and that is that the demand has increased. So, we need to have look at every source of energy that is not polluting the world in a big way. But I think it's a misconception that nuclear can make a big impact in the short term. And in many countries, including our own. Some people are discussing. 00:36:50 Nuclear as a relatively short or medium term fix, that's not my view, but it's certainly something that we need to look at in the longer term. 00:36:59 Very good. So, my final question is:. What would be your advice to a new CEO, or perhaps many here leaders in this audience and beyond in this volatile and disruptive world? What would be your best advice to any of us here? 00:37:22 I'm Not sure that I can be in a good position to give a lot of advice, but maybe to younger leaders and younger graduates, I think in many ways, it's more important to choose whom you are working for in terms of the leaders and the team that you have around you rather than the position itself. Itself, I think we all or at least many of us have experienced how individuals you have worked with are impacting you in a big way and much more prominent than many other factors. The other one, And I think this was one of my challenges in the beginning of my career because I have been at INSEAD. 00:38:12 We were very numerical and analytical in the way we did it. I worked a few years at McKinsey, Also a lot of sort of spreadsheets and analysts to try to come to risk - free decisions. That doesn't work. So I think what we need to do is for young leaders, to train them to make decisions under uncertainty. And not wait for certainty that never comes. And with that, I'd like to thank. 00:38:51 You very much. No, I think it's right. I think it's cool. No, it's a good way to finish the talk, I think. Like, 00:38:57 I always feel like, especially in investments like you're always going to have uncertainty if you need to bet on something and sometimes you wait too long and the stock price goes up and your ROI goes down too. Um, I think most of us, All companies, owners, leaders feel this dilemma between short term and long term. And I really liked what you spoke about the Helium when it comes to, if you focus on the values and the leadership, and you really know what is great for the company when it comes to values and leadership long term, Then you can. 00:39:34 Have a more kind of. 00:39:36 Aggressive strategy short term and take more risk. Those long term, you know, what is good for the company. So, that was a fantastic reflection that I will take back and I hope, hopefully you all take back. 00:39:49 We don't really reach the deep conversations. 00:39:53 So, Thank you so much again to all of the questionable decisions they had to make, mostly about the BP. I would love them to poke a little bit deeper of like. So. 00:40:07 Our next conversation. It's a conversation I've been looking forward to deeply. She served as Norway's youngest Minister of Justice, navigating some of the most complex and sensitive decisions any leader can face. And today, she's sitting in an INSEAD classroom, learning alongside the next generation of leaders. I find that both courageous and inspiring in equal measures. And I have to say, 00:40:35 I have mixed feelings about it. 00:40:39 Please welcome Chief Advancement Officer at INSEAD, Mark Roberts, in conversation with Amelia Webb. This. 00:40:51 One was really excited to hear. Oh, you're right. They were the same. Yes. Even both in red. 00:40:59 I haven't been so long and I've missed it. Super cool So Amelia, are you sitting comfortably? We'll begin so. Thank you, first of all, so much for joining us and back home here in Oslo for you. So welcome back. It's really wonderful that you took the time to get here to join the workshop. We really appreciate that. Thank you, it's a pleasure. And at Insead, as you know, We've got a student initiative called Humans of Insead, which focuses less on sort of the polished narratives that we hear so often and much more on kind of the moments that shape us, the things that you don't necessarily hear so much about. 00:41:35 And that's really the spirit, I think, of the conversation that hopefully we're going to have. Until recently, as everyone knows, you were Norway's youngest Minister of Justice. You're navigating crises, Making high- stakes decisions and carrying really what must have felt like and was I guess, you know, an enormous responsibility at a national level. And, now you find yourself in the classroom with us at Insead studying as a student. And you've already had just a remarkable journey at quite a young age, So keen to hear more about kind of how you are starting to reflect on the leadership roles that you've had. How perhaps the INSEAD time is giving you opportunity and space to reflect. So famously, You stepped into this role as Minister of Justice into a national leadership role at a pretty young age. So, when you don't have all the answers necessarily or all the experience behind you, 00:42:31 Um, what do you think good leadership really looks like in practice? And how did you learn that?