00:00:12 
Hi Bert, Mark. How are you? A bit jet lagged, but I'm okay. All right. He flew in from the US just this morning, so we're going to try and get the energy levels up. Yeah, thanks for doing that for being with us. And fortunately I made the connection, so luckily I made the connection. We didn't run out of energy on the way over, and we won't run out of energy through this session either. We have some themes to build on, right? We heard about leadership, we heard about disruption, we heard about hard choices, And I want to get into some details about the energy transition around those themes. But, why don't we start for everybody here with you telling us a bit about your journey and your leadership journey and where you are today?
00:00:52 
Thanks, Mark. First, why am I here? Because I guess it's close to two years ago that Svendsblom said we have this in South alumni event. Would you like to come? When somebody asks you two years, you say of course. And as you get closer to date, you're like oh no. But a promise is a promise, and knowing Falci, would never forgive nor forget. So, you know it's a pleasure; it's very much a pleasure to be here. So, my name is Heibert Zegheno. I am from the Netherlands, but I often say that I might look Dutch, I might sing Dutch, but my heart is Brazilian. When.
00:01:37 
I when i say Dutch are clapping,'am not sure what. That's supposed to mean,
00:01:42 
But when I say that in the Netherlands, nobody cares. When I say that in Brazil, they hug and they kiss me. But it gives a balance of understanding both sides, so to speak. As you rightly said, I spent thirty years at S hell: ten years in trading and chemicals; ten years in what we call our customer businesses.; and ten years, I was our executive chairman in China. Doing everything in China, Where we were the largest investor and all the multi billion projects abroad with Chinese partners. Then we acquired a big company called the BG Group, which I actually was privileged to work with Helga, who was the CEO at the time, and I was able to take over that role. In the last five years at Shell, I was in the executive committee running around fifty six percent of the company. And January this year, I joined The Med Group because having done five years of executive committee.
00:02:37 
Twenty one quarterly results, twenty one quarterly update notes, etc. It was nice to do something different. And in all fairness, I was looking for three things. One is when the alarm would go off in the morning, I would look forward to do what I do. Secondly, Something that really worked for my family and so not more, the US or Asia giving aging parents, etc. And thirdly, most importantly, something that I could look back and say we did it. Something with purpose. That was the method by which I found a company that I firmly believe that Europe needs energy champions. But doesn't have it. So that's the intent which I have with the Met Group. On a personal side, I am married to Anik. We have four kids. So if you think the job is busy, I welcome you to our home and which is probably really true uh.
00:03:31 
And Anika and I always had dual careers, and we jointly tried to manage our careers. Thank you. We jointly tried to manage our careers in Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, London a couple of times, Beijing. If you ask me how did you do that? Difficult. There's no silver bullet around that, but you need to be honest to each other. But, To the previous panel, For me, there is a direct correlation between my career and that I met Anik. So I think it's very yours. There you go. Oh, by the way, I always used to tell:" I married once, and it wasn't to the company. I worked with." So at least I don't remember standing at the altar saying to that company," I do." All.
00:04:15 
Right. Thank you. Thank you for that. I want to get into energy transition and you know when when, I talked to our students at INSEAD about this too. I sort of said," This is where we have to get to by this date,". And it's as if there is a path that each year, we're going to get a little bit closer, a little bit closer, and then hit the target. But we know that's not exactly what's going on, right? And that a lot of what we heard this morning was about disruption to that path. So tell us about what in the trenches energy transition means and looks like if it's not a path towards a target.
00:04:51 
Well, it's definitely not a path. Towards the target, and it's definitely not a stable path towards the target. I think there's a big difference between intent and hope and reality. And, the reality is that many things don't work out as you want them to work out, that things are delayed, that policies which you thought were there are not there. But, there's also a reality that I think is a very important reality. : is what kind of customer have we?
00:05:23 
And how much are they willing to take? And what's the affordability of that? And how easy is it for that? So I think, in my view, in the energy transition, what I've learned is a couple things. One, it's great to have a vision and an ambition. But, it's much more important to bring that back to something, which has a time horizon that you can actually do something with. With all the respect, But I don't really know anybody if you say by twenty fifty, this is what we need to be. That's going to do something different next week. Nobody does. If you do, good luck, but you know I doubt it. So, you need to bring it back to something, which is close enough, but still long enough that you can do something. So say this decade because then you will change things. Then you need to do something which has brings up something positive about it. It's very easy to be negative around the possibility, so it needs to be realistic, but there needs to have some positivity around it. Then from my experience.
00:06:21 
It works really well to say, just start with a customer and work back from that, and really think around the customer experience, and then you stitch value chains together. I think too often we've just said, let's build something and we'll find a route to market. And then I think, secondly, you really need to be honest on a sector by sector basis, what works and what doesn't work. And, you know, it's great to look at the world through the lens of Oslo, but the world looks different. Through the lens of Beijing, Houston, or Sao Paulo. So the reality of the energy transition is it's happening everywhere, but it's happening at different speeds. But at the end,
00:07:00 
It's a very local solution. And, you think that this combination of local solutions is building this energy system that we need for the future? Or is it already looking backwards and building what we might have thought we needed five years ago or ten years ago? It depends a bit where you are.
00:07:19 
So, if you are, I mentioned Brazil in seventy nine, they decided, after the funny enough, the Iran crisis to limit their dependence on foreign oil and gas. So, they decided to have all their combustion engines to have fuel so ethanol, which they have in abundance. And if needed diesel or petrol. Ninety percent of the car fleet in Brazil is flex. So that's something. This was, you know, thirty forty years ago. So they're far ahead. I have to say from my time in China, that's where I think we underestimate how far ahead China is. And, we underestimate that we think about it often in where China the perception ten twenty years ago. But if you look at all the investments in energy transition around the world, more than fifty percent is happening in China.
00:08:16 
More than fifty percent for a continuous basis. It's not, I don't think it's because they want to be Paris because we call it Paris. It has to do very much with energy independence. It has to do with the issues around social stability and pollution. But I'll give you one anecdote of why I think it is happening in China, which we should think about more from a European lens as well. As I mentioned when I was at Shell, we're a big investor in China. And I was at Huizhou, which is in Guangdong province. Guangdong is the same GDP and number of people as Germany. And Huizhou is a city you might not have heard of ;. It only has ten million people, typical Chinese. And we were doubling down on a large chemicals investment. So I was with the vice governor sitting next to me, and opposite me was the party secretary, the number one of Huizhou.
00:09:10 
And he was bragging about how clean his city had become. And the vice governor said, "I don't believe you." And he said, "He took his iPhone, which is not iPhone Xiaomi probably," and he said, "Look it's." He looked at the data and they look at particulars right. And he said, "I'm now the third cleanest city in in the province." And the vice governor said, "This is so good for your career prospects." So so if you want to make, A career in the party in the past, it was all around economic growth. Now it's around economic growth and green credentials. So you create a system where you actually get both two things, which are relevant as we go through that transition. Interesting,
00:09:57 
So maybe this is a good way to flip to talking about the role that geopolitics is playing in energy transition today. You spoke about China, can I ask you? And I know you have a, Meeting in Brussels in a few days'time, where you are going to be asked to talk a bit about this. Can, you talk about where Europe is and where Europe needs to go in a nice way? Yeah, no, I.
00:10:19 
Have to say I was at Qatar. Sorry, at LNG twenty six, which is the big liquefied natural gas conference, and they were asking me and I said, well, you know, is Europe a champion in anything? And I simply said yes regulation but so but I, I've been getting a lot of brownie points for being a world champion in regulation. You know, I think just some anecdotes, but there's many things I can say about. I do see a change in and I'll be at the Department of Climate on T ues day ;. They asked me to speak around how it feels from the ground root first.
00:11:05 
In reality, I think and we as businesses have to take it on as well. The distance between governments in Europe, businesses and citizens has become way too big. And there's a mistrust between governments and businesses, between businesses and governments, and citizens between both. Then, of course, you can blame it on the government, but I don't think that works that way. So you also have to be active yourself. And create a much more dialogue understanding. I have to say, I just came back from Houston in the US. It feels much more open to business, leaving certain things in the current administration aside, which I know is very nice and easy to talk about. And I won't go there and not identifying any certain individual.
00:12:01 
But I have to say, I was in Washington in February and they've created the US Europe Energy Corridor. And I was there on behalf of Medgroup to sign a liquefied natural gas contract between the US and Europe. Funny enough, with Shell, but we'll leave that aside. And there was the Secretary of Energy was there, Chris Wright; the Secretary of Interior, Deb Birgen; and twenty two ministers from Central Eastern Europe. So I explained to them the company I am with, Met Group. I said, "You know, t here is three things you need to know about the Met Group: one, we're the only pan European gas power and renewables company; two, we're the only company with a very large customer base; and three, we're independent." And I flew overnight to Berlin and he sent me an app. So this is Secretary of Energy saying Hybridge was great to meet.
00:12:59 
Keep up the good work. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help. Well, I've never received an app like that from any European politician. And the point is the mindset, right? And if you do something with it or not, so of course I sent an app back and I said, "You know, thank you very much. Thanks for your leadership." Da da da. He says, "You bet, ", but it just creates much more proximity when I am in C hina ;. It's the same way. So, in China, if you deal with many of the ministries or their governments, they want to understand where you are. The way they do it is different, but the intent is the same. And I think that's really what we miss in Europe. I think both businesses and politicians we shield away in our castles, rather than looking at proximity to say what works and what doesn't work. So, what I will say in Europe on Tuesday is.
00:13:54 
I understand the intent, but it's impractical in reality to implement. So, it's very okay to say this is what we can do in the short term, medium term, long term. Not everything needs to be the solution. You know, not everything needs to be greenest; greener is also okay. The second thing I could say is you need to think about the customer experience. Why is electric vehicles really taking off in most places around the world? Because the customer experience is just second to none. And then, the sector, The end- to- end value chain will solve itself out with range anxiety and things like that. But that's for instance, The trouble with green hydrogen because it's very expensive and it's very unclear for a customer what its benefit to them is.
00:14:52 
Those are some of the things I am trying to explain. Okay,
00:14:55 
Okay. When we think about the impossible trifecta of energy right security, affordability, And sustainability. Yeah, maybe one day that won't be impossible. But for now, there seems like t here is a lot of real tradeoffs and tensions between those. And I want just to ask from the perspective of MEK, in particular, where are those playing out? What trade- offs do you make?
00:15:21 
I have to say, if you look at the balance energy transition, energy security, energy affordability. If you look at the previous crisis and the crisis we're now in, of course if you really ask politicians what they want is energy affordability. And very rich nations also here in Scandinavia. There's then there's a bit of pushback from parts of society, farmers, truckers, and then all the regulations you have, which put in place, they change immediately. So that's very difficult to build a business on. So I think if you do something, stay the course. I think the reality now is that it's actually not so much about energy transition and affordability and security, it's around energy independence. The world is changing and we might like it, not like it. I'm a pragmatist or a realpolitiker. So as Europe, we need to say we have a lot, but we need to be real that we need to stand on our own feet.
00:16:18 
And that means not just one form of energy, but we will need all forms of energy. So be less draconian around yes/no. We need it all. But, we need to be able to produce it and provide it here because I don't think you can rely just if you look at the Strait of Hormuz, or if you look at what we used to have in Russia or even if you look at the big energy independence, we're now creating with the US. You need to say, okay, Maybe there are certain things that I don't really want to do in the continent. Nuclear, maybe oil and gas for our transition but energy independence is now more relevant. The philosophy I have though on energy independence is if you really think about it, what it means for Europe for example is actually more solar power, more battery storage, more wind, more nuclear.
00:17:11 
But what you need is it's almost like these are all organs. You need the blood system to make it all work.
00:17:18 
And the air to make it all work. One of the members of the audience asked me, when the moment comes up, Can you ask him to expand a bit on what he thinks about nuclear in Europe? And so I think that's the moment since he just started. So can you expand a bit on the role for nuclear?
00:17:34 
I think nuclear has a very big role. I think in our minds when we think about nuclear, we think about nuclear from twenty thirty years ago or forty years ago. Because that's probably when the last type of reactors were made, But you need to be realistic in a world, which is you have to stand more on your own. For me, there are four areas which are key in Europe. I became the chair of Europe Delivers, Which is a coalition of companies working together in the four critical sectors to create end- to- end value chains :, which are defense, which is energy, which is critical minerals and data and AI.
00:18:09 
If you think of many of those type of sectors, I think nuclear is not the solution, but it's a solution. If you think of data and AI, if you think about twenty four seven without intermittency, then it is something you should do. But what is also true is it won't be here in five years. It will take ten to twenty years before you have it. I think in China they open a nuclear reactor every month or so.
00:18:39 
So it's something which you need a long-term view on. And then as you implement it, then you say, okay, what are we going to do next phases? At the same time, we need to have of course more solar and wind where it is relevant. One of the challenges we have in Europe is that solar and wind are fantastic, but they're just not where the industry is. So one will need to move if you think about it. Secondly, if you think about where our industry is, We need our industry in Europe because we just all promised to have five percent of our GDP going to defense or three and a half or one and a half percent for infrastructure. Well, You need an industry in Germany, which is at least growing one and a half to two percent of GDP of growth rate to be able to afford that. So, we need to find a balance that we just are honest with each other.
00:19:36 
And say, okay, we need our industry. We want to get greener. What are the things that we can do in a world where we need to stand on our own feet?
00:19:48 
I want to ask the next question as diplomatically as possible, and then you take it where you want to go. If you were to compare Shell and Enet, who's better positioned to lead the energy transition? A large incumbent like Shell or, More agile players. What.
00:20:08 
Do you mean more agile? Maybe, yeah, it's a good one. Of course, I won't be diplomatic so I'll give a small anecdote. I told somebody about first of all, having been in event for four months now. I cannot describe everything, I am experiencing, but I can tell you I am in the right place. It's great to be in a company which is independent, so our shareholders are employees. Which makes decision very quick. People are very vested. I don't need to worry just about what an institutional investor wants, which at the end is share buybacks and dividends, Or what, like if you work for a utility company at the end, what the government tells you to do. You can really do what's right, which I think for energy transition is key. So it allows you to adjust and adapt more. But anecdotally, if I think of Shell but other.
00:21:04 
Large multinationals, you know, at the end Europe is important, but there are other many regions that are important. So, you're not as vested and as close as proximate to where the activity is. And in my view, Europe needs energy champions because customers deserve it. Because, you know, if you think of the experience in energy in Europe is not great. If you compare to all the other sectors in which you operate, In what you can do on your iPhone and how you can get whatever service you want, and secondly, Governments in Europe need independent companies supporting helping them along their journey, because the knowledge if I'm honest around energy in many councils in Europe is highly naive. It's all well-intended but unpractical.
00:21:59 
So, I think we can improve. To answer your question and the anecdotes I gave in the Med group :. If you want to move the table, move the table. In Shell, if you want to move the table, the first question is "How are we going to move the table? " And, then you do a risk assessment and a safety briefing, and then you call the Table Moving Division. And then. You know, and they say, "Oh, sorry. In three weeks you're the first one." That type of thing. So I exaggerate the fact, but the speed of activity is obviously very different. Of course Shell has much more access to capital. So and can rethink therefore much longer term. My view is with Meds, you adjust and adapt towards where you want to go to next time. It's pretty different. Listen I still have a lot of shares in Shell right so.
00:23:00 
The highest voted question from the audience is around AI and data centers. How do we provide? And, you spoke a little bit about that when you were talking about the need for nuclear. Do, you want to say a little bit more on how we're going to meet the energy demand? Yeah, It's.
00:23:16 
If you look at I sit on the board of KBR Kellogg Brown Root, which is an American engineer multinational, and that's why I was in Houston. And by the way, if you have an A G M in, In the US, it's fifteen minutes. I couldn't believe it because in Shell, I was preparing months for the AGM, but in the US, it's fifteen minutes. So there is something around efficiency there. But I sit on the board with Joe Dominguez, who is the CEO and chairman of Constellation Energy, which is a very big nuclear company and gas company. And the way they are exploding in growth to provide data centers with the energy they need.
00:23:57 
And so, I believe that from the global investments in data and AI, five percent is here. Sixty, I think, is in the US and then in China a lot. So, there's something that if we don't understand with each other, how we are going to utilize data and AI and grow it and provide energy towards it, we'll just fall behind. Then I come back to the element around. We need our industry all industries to ensure that we have economic growth. To be able to actually do the things we really want to do, which is defense and energy transition. But I think it is it's not in Europe. We often like to think about everybody everybody can say no, but it's very unclear who can say yes. And I think in things like data and AI, we need to have a different form of working that we say okay, we are going to do it because we can understand it, and even if not all countries in Europe agree.
00:24:55 
Then at least you do it with a coalition that you can move ahead. But we're also going to have to change our mindset. If we know this is critical, then we're going to have to fast track certain things. We're quite good when there's really a crisis ;, we can fast track a lot of things. But I think we need to have a bit of a different approach around these four sectors. : what I mentioned energy, data and AI, critical minerals, and the fourth one was defense around saying "listen." We need to create a capital union. We need to allow our pension funds to really invest in these companies. We need to have like a grand plan and then say, where do we want to be in the next years to deliver that.
00:25:36 
Is there any scenario for Europe where you see the current conflict with Iran benefiting Europe's energy transition?
00:25:52 
The one thing I've learned is if you look at the stocks of AI companies, everything you cannot see is priced in. If you look at what's happening in the Middle East and energy, everything you can see is not priced in yet. So it's going to get way worse. So I think if you look at Strait of Hormuz, if by some miracle if it opens and you get the flow going, it will take at least three to six months before you see products intact. So I think We need to be honest around what will happen. What is the silver lining? It's the same silver lining, which we had in twenty one twenty two Russia Ukraine, around energy independence. The big difference then was it was between Russia and Europe, and it was a mild winter in Asia, so we could get a lot of liquefied natural gas from Asia to Europe. Now we're competing for the same liquefied natural gas, which Asia, which has much more long term fixed contracts than Europe has.
00:26:50 
So they actually will have more of a more go that way. So, it just reinforces the case that you cannot wait for a European energy independence viewpoint. Be open minded about all forms of energy rather than trying to exclude. And then think what can we do the short term, medium term, and then at the end get to that long term.
00:27:16 
Can I thank you? And I just pick up on one thing you said that triggered. A pre- conversation we had, you said it was the mild winter in Asia that saved Europe. That saved us. We had a discussion in Europe at the time that it was the mild winter in Europe, and you corrected me on that. And I wondered maybe I think it would be useful just to say something about that.
00:27:37 
So if you think of so when we have the Russia Ukraine conflict, so we close the pipelines, so very short of gas. So where does that gas come from? The only available gas is, Liquefied natural gas, Europe for all intents and purposes was addicted to Russian gas and Russian naphtha, Which allowed our industry actually to get cheap gas and cheap naphtha to keep running. Now we pay three four times as much as for instance in the US. When we cut those pipelines or stopped the flow, The available liquefied natural gas was that most of liquefied natural gas in the world goes to four countries.
00:28:16 
China, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea. And, they do eighty to ninety eighty percent of what they have is what we call long term fixed contracts. And Europe and all our wisdom we do eighty percent spot. So that means that whatever's available in the market. So, because it was a mild winter in Asia. Actually a lot of LNG cargoes could be diverted because the Asian customers said, oh, it's okay. I don't really need it now. If it would have been a severe winter in Asia, those cargoes would not have been available and would have not come to Europe. That's my point. And if you look at where we are now in the Middle East, Strait of Hormuz, if it's going to be a hot summer in Asia, therefore where you need LNG for cooling, you need it for heating in the winter. And it will be a cold winter in Asia, then it will be very difficult for Europe.
00:29:15 
To get this liquefied natural gas.
00:29:16 
Okay. Thank you. So, interesting, interesting. Last question because we are out of time unfortunately, time flies. Yeah Given all of your experiences and what you see when you're looking ahead, We want to end on a good note. So what gives you the most conviction or optimism about the future of energy?
00:29:37 
Uh First of all I'm actually The best thing what could happen to, Us in Europe is that for whatever reasons, but that we understand we cannot just rely on others, we need to do it ourselves. So I think that's the best thing that could happen, that created much more purpose. And as I mentioned, energy independence will per definition will bring you much more energy transition. Will give you energy security. And if you are open enough about all the energy forms, will actually give you affordability because you won't have to pay peak prices.
00:30:14 
For things when the market is very short. But I talked around China quite a bit and how things are moving there. But I am optimistic, One because we are realizing it. And between companies and governments, we will find practical solutions in the short, medium, longer term. But there is something in Europe that I think we underplay a lot. So we over-index in the challenges, And we under-index on the opportunities. And I don't know if some of you might know this, but the Chinese word for crisis is "wei ji," which is two characters. And "wei" means danger, and "ji" means opportunity. So it depends very much just how you look at the situation. So I lived in China for three years, and it's you know things are happening; it's going quick.
00:31:11 
Super determined and fantastic possibilities. But one of the things I've learned when I spoke to the Sinopec chairman, I asked him what really admires you in Europe, and he said one was around safety, But he said, second is your ability to work together at lower levels of the organization. And I thought about that, And then I said, well, if you think of China many other countries in the world. They love their sports. But yet, here in Europe, we excel in our sports. It doesn't matter if it's football, handball, volleyball, basketball, field hockey whatever it is. In every country we're extremely good in sports. And in sports, all walks of life play together, but at all levels people that anticipate they work. So they can read things together, they can do things together.
00:32:10 
And to me, it's something we have something in Europe which we haven't realized yet. That if we have a common purpose and we're positive about it, and we get the right coaching at all levels, We can do great because people will work together rather than having to rise to the top and ask what shall I do. So, there is an analogy around I think because there was another question around team sports is think about that about what you can do. If we're just saying, What is it that we want to win this season or next season within the societies we're in and where people can work together. Thank you. Pleasure. One thing, one small thing if if that's okay. Yeah, I'm standing, I'm ready. See uh. Now I sometimes ask audiences like this is.
00:33:04 
I understand INSEAD is almost 70 years. And if I look around, I don't think any of you was the first class of INSEAD. I don't think so. But then you look at INSEAD, so in 30 years it will be 100 years, which will be a unique moment. But many of you won't be in active duty probably in 30 years. So my question to you is why is now a unique time?
00:33:36 
There's many things we're discussing today, many possibilities, many challenges, many way forwards. But why is now a unique time? Now is a unique time because it's your time. You can say, you can think, you can argue with many things. But it's also you are here. You spend forty, fifty, sixty, seventy hours, Eighty hours—I don't know how much hours—in doing what you do, because hopefully you love it. So try to make a difference—not only telling what other people do, but what you can do as well. Thank you very much.